French Word Order

[Dillon]

What is the exact word order for French? In the reflexive verbs, it's always
SOV, like "Je t'aime", however in sentences like "J'aime la glace" it is
like English, SVO. Is French just flexible in this, or is there some sort of
rule that defines how which order you should use depending on the sentence?

[Mxsmanic]

Post by Dillon
What is the exact word order for French?

Usually subject-verb-object for common and proper object nouns,
subject-object-verb for object pronouns, noun-adjective for most
adjectives, verb-adverb.

Post by Dillon
In the reflexive verbs, it's always SOV, like "Je t'aime" ...

More generally, this is true wherever pronouns are used, e.g., "Je
l'aime bien," "Il m'a rappelé hier," and so on.

Post by Dillon
Is French just flexible in this, or is there some
sort of rule that defines how which order you
should use depending on the sentence?

The general rule is that common and proper object nouns follow the verb,
but object pronouns precede it.

[Jacques Guy]

Post by Dillon
What is the exact word order for French? In the reflexive verbs, it's always
SOV, like "Je t'aime", however in sentences like "J'aime la glace" it is
like English, SVO. Is French just flexible in this, or is there some sort of
rule that defines how which order you should use depending on the sentence?

The traditional spelling hides the true structure. "Je t'aime" is a
single
word, composed of a verb with two prefixes. Likewise: "il ne m'en parle"
(as in "il ne m'en parle pas"). There you have four prefixes:

subject (il), negative (ne), dative (me), genitive (en)

Another common prefix is "y" (locative). The relative order of these
prefixes is strictly determined.

BTW I used "genitive" loosely. "En" expresses "de cela" in all
the senses that "de" can have in French: possessive, partitive,
instrumental (je me sers de cela), and so on.

[Jacques Guy]

Like: {Il n'y en a} que deux? :)

Yes: there are only two _of_ it (en) there (y)

And "y" expresses "Ã cela", I suppose?

You mean "à cela" (html: « à cela »),
don't you? Right again. "Il n'y en a que deux"
can also mean: there are only two (e.g. solutions: en) to it
(y).

So, not only locative, but
also some other cases?

Yes.

[Lee Sau Dan]

Dillon> What is the exact word order for French? In the reflexive
Dillon> verbs, it's always SOV, like "Je t'aime",

That's not a reflexive verb. "reflexive" means the pronoun must refer
to the subject it_self_. Something like "Je m'appelle ...", "Je me
souvien ...". And definitely not the cases where the object is different
from the subject, like "Je t'appelle", "Je vous remercie".


Dillon> however in sentences like "J'aime la glace" it is like
Dillon> English, SVO. Is French just flexible in this,

No. It's not flexible, because you cannot say "J'aime te." nor "Je la
glace aime." The only correct way to say these are "Je t'aime." and
"J'aime la glace.". No alternatives. So, do you still think that's
"flexible"?


Dillon> or is there some sort of rule that defines how which
Dillon> order you should use depending on the sentence?

You put the object and indirect object before the verb whenever these
are represented by pronouns. If they're nouns instead of pronouns,
they must come after the verb. No alternative.

Incidentally, reflexive verbs always use the SOV order, precisely
because of this rule: the "reflected" object is always a pronoun
("me", "te", "vous", "nous", "se") in a reflexive expression. That's
the result, not the cause.

[Mxsmanic]

Post by Lee Sau Dan
You put the object and indirect object before
the verb whenever these are represented by pronouns.
If they're nouns instead of pronouns,
they must come after the verb. No alternative.

There are always alternatives; this is only a general rule.

In imperative constructions, the pronouns follow the verb:
"Demandez-le-lui," "Écoutez-moi," and so on.

When one of the pronouns would be a preposition and the construction is
"strong" (emphasizing), sometimes it may follow the verb: "Il s'agit
d'eux," etc. Sometimes it may precede the verb with a relative pronoun
"C'est d'eux que je parle," etc.

When two pronouns are present, the pronoun in the accusative (direct
object) is placed closest to the verb, unless the dative (indirect
object) is lui ou leur, in which case lui ou leur is normally placed
closest to the verb: "Je me le dis," "Il nous l'a donné," but "Je le lui
dis," "Je le leur donne."

[Lee Sau Dan]

Mxsmanic> There are always alternatives; this is only a general
Mxsmanic> rule.

Mxsmanic> In imperative constructions, the pronouns follow the
Mxsmanic> verb: "Demandez-le-lui," "Écoutez-moi," and so on.

Notice that you use "moi" here -- the emphatic form of "je/me". Other
emphatic forms are "toi", "lui" and of course "nous" and "vous".

Anyway, these do not constitute as "alternatives". "Demandez-le-lui"
is not the same as "Vous le lui demandez". So, that's not an
alternative.



Mxsmanic> When two pronouns are present, the pronoun in the
Mxsmanic> accusative (direct object) is placed closest to the
Mxsmanic> verb, unless the dative (indirect object) is lui ou
Mxsmanic> leur, in which case lui ou leur is normally placed
Mxsmanic> closest to the verb: "Je me le dis," "Il nous l'a
Mxsmanic> donné," but "Je le lui dis," "Je le leur donne."

Again, these are rigid rules you cannot break freely. No
alternatives. You don't say "Je lui le dis" or "Il le nous'a donné",
do you?

I've seen a diagram in a grammar book that summarize the order of the
pronouns. It's like:

{Je/tu/il/elle/nous/vous/ils/elles} ne y en {me/te/le/se/nous/vous}
{lui/leur} verb ...

or something similar. You cannot disobey this order.

[Mxsmanic]

Post by Lee Sau Dan
Notice that you use "moi" here -- the emphatic form
of "je/me".

This form is almost always used in the imperative construction (except
"donnez-m'en").

[Lee Sau Dan]

Post by Lee Sau Dan
Notice that you use "moi" here -- the emphatic form of "je/me".

Mxsmanic> This form is almost always used in the imperative
Mxsmanic> construction (except "donnez-m'en").

Yeah. So, it is definitely NOT an "alternative" of the non-imperative
mood. They have different meanings. In each case, the word order is
RIGID. No flexibility.